Is It Just Me Or....

Firstly, I don't find myself attractive.  In other words, I won't date myself even if I was the last person alive on the earth.

You make it sound like you're the elephant man An.  Having met you I can safely say you're far far from that end of the spectrum.

Physical attraction is certainly an element of a relationship, but it's only a small part - as one of my friends said, when you're kissing someone you're that close to them that you can't even see if they're attractive or not so what does it matter? 

It probably does matter at the very beginning of a relationship, as in what makes you go up and talk to them or agree to go out with them to begin with.  But thankfully humanity has the great trait that every person is different and we all have different tastes.  What I find attractive others would be far from attracted to and vice versa. 

Maybe An when you look at yourself you focus too much on the little imperfections that no-one else notices or really cares about.  My advice is to focus on what you like about yourself and then the imperfections begin to fade away.  Or if that doesn't work, get down and do push-ups or weights exercises with some bricks or something because exercise releases hormones which make you feel much better about yourself which may in turn lead to greater confidence.  And I have heard that people who are confident with themselves do come across as much more attractive.  Saying that though, there's nothing quite as cute as someone who's attractive but doesn't know it.

Just while I think of it and because it's vaguely related to this topic, I heard the best quote yesterday - "Never wait for a man or a tram, another one will come around in a minute."

Quote from one of my friends:
"If I have to wake up next to someone every morning, he might as well be good looking."

I'm glad I don't resemble an elephant.

And in terms of trams... they ususally come in bulk.  The next one is usually just behind another one or a long wait away.  Does that translate into men too?

Nah someone who doesn't have bad breath in the morning would be higher on my list of things they must be if I was to wake up next to them.

I second that. Besides, who's good looking when they're waking up anyway? I'm certainly not!

And isnt this a quote from tv "God I dont just fall out of bed looking this good" and if tv said it then it must be true.

I guess I have a problem with my self esteem. I know that's hard for some of you who know me to imagine but it's true for a few reasons.  Firstly, I don't find myself attractive.  In other words, I won't date myself even if I was the last person alive on the earth.  Secondly, I've got an asian background and there are not many boys around that like asians.  I myself don't like asians if you get what i'm saying.
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And on approaching people I like... it links to the way i view myself.  Why would anyone (or the person I like) feel the same way about me if even I don't think I'm attractive.  so why bother if i already know that the answer is no?

Wow. That's a load of crock - I mean that in a nice way!!!

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Look, I'm gay, but I count myself as bi because I would - and have - dated girls for the sheer appeal of their personality.

And the thing about 'not many guys liking Asians', hmmm, yeah I'm familiar with the thought. But it's a... not exactly sterotype, but sterotypical thinking. I hate how that 'option' used to appear on Gaydar etc. What I loathe even more is the guys explicitly 'looking for Asians'. Shudder. I even had a friend's straight boyfriend say he 'only dated Asians' (such as her) because they were 'demure'. Grrr. We came close to fists over that (and he's an army reserve and I'm, well, me. I've been beaten unconscious before).

Anyway, I may be adding to controversy but I really see that as rascism. Especially when it's impacted on your self esteem - kinda shows how it at least has the same negative and personally destructive effects of rascism, even if it's a variation thereof.

Where it does count with me - and here is where I'm being controversial - is when you get Asian guys (or girls... mostly straight in my experience) who can't speak the language, but want to basically move in with someone they've barely met. The guys who literally say "I love you" in very poor english, and are looking for someone (anyone!) to support them.

I'm not, I hope, making generalisations - I've personally had trouble twice with this; one was a girl on campus at UC, who really bothered me, and one guy was a guy who asked me out months ago and then got very very angry when I turned him down ("But I love you, I think we have connection" etc etc) when we'd honestly had no contact whatsoever (literally he'd seen my picture on a dating site and PMed me there with a compliment; I had replied with a one-off, polite, non-commital "thank you, have a lovely day!" response).

Even worse are the men (usually older or a bit pathetic, like my army reserve enemy, who flatly said he only dated Asian's because he needed 'tending') who hunt them out; I really think it's a form of predatory behaviour. You know, the sugar daddy thing, with an added racial underscoring. 

So, I think that sort of behaviour - on both sides of the racial equation - sort of lead to this sterotype where a lot of regular guys aren't into Asian guys. It's really got little to do with looks or anything, it's a sort of trying to distance oneself from the less savoury behaviour of creeps looking for 'asian boys'. It's a Russian Bride sort of insinuation, this scary instant commital thing of a mutually needy relationship founded on perpetuating (erroneous) dominant power relations.

So, if somebody asked me "are you into Asians" - same as if they asked about "bears" or "daddies" or whatever - I'd say "no" and glare at them. But would I date an Asian guy? Sure. Same as I'm not into bears, but I had a boyfriend who (to people who think in such sterotypes) would have certainly fitted the category.

Basically, to offer myself as an example, I'm a geek (non athletic, kinda nerdy). But I'd avoid anyone who had a sexual obsession for geeks, or was only looking for geeks. Because I'm so much more. And frankly, I'm aggressive and not into somebody who's fixated on having a 'weaker' partner, as some way to soothe and salve the invisble inadequacies of a bruised ego.

To give another example - and to explain in a big way ho race has nothing to do with why I wouldn't pursue a relationship with any of the "love you" Asian guys - about three years ago I met an amazingly attractive and intelligent man, who was at ANU too. He was visually perfect, in my eyes. I'd look at him and imagine him in bed with me. We went out about three times, but nothing hapened: it fizzled and it had to. Why?

Sebastien didn't speak English, I don't speak French, so even though I knew how incredible he was, we couldn't have a connection. I could read his emails, but that was all.

It was a weird situation. We were of the same mind on that count, too, which made it weirder - how very difficult to know the person in front of you is fantastic, everything you want, but be unable to access any of the brilliance there (plus, it really made me personally assess whether my attraction to intelligence was in it's own way superficial i.e. if I had slept with him, just because I was aware he was smart, even though the smarts would have counted for nothing except a silly sense of standing, of snobbery, of our superiority. Very tricky)

Anyway, aside from that I disapprove of the instant love/support dynamics of the "arranged relationship on a percieved racial axis", my reason for not "liking" Asian guys like that has nothing to do with looks, but because of a lack of communication (espcially as I'm a very verbal person). I can't imagine being close with anyone I can't express myself with, and to. And the common misconception about race puts my back up even more - I'd want everybody to know that my hypothetical Asian-background boyfriend was my complete equal (as with anyone), and that there was jack-shit to do with "race" in the basis of our attraction. Including, I should add, his feelings for me.

Whew. Hope this makes sense and people read the argument through. If it's inappropriate or inadvertently offensive to people, I'll delete it pronto.

Basically, An, I strongly don't think you should view your own background as counting against you in the physical attraction stakes, or (conversely) to see predominantly white phenotypes as having an inherent advantage in 'looks'.

Best,
Hapgood


PS On the matters of looks, and of race, my two favourite crushes on Heroes are Ando Masahashi and Peter Petrelli. Mostly, in physical terms at least, because of how cocky they both look. It's an attitude in their appearance that attracts me.

["Great alliteration there, John boy!" "Why thank you")

Mr Hapgood... I totally agree with you about the fobie guys who go real mushy.  I also agree with you that communication is important in any relationship and having a partner who speaks the same language is one of the key factors.

Most of my friends and I are of the view (either real or not, perpetuated by sociality's stereotyping or prejudices) that asian gay men have a much harder time finding a real partner.  Out of all my gay asian friends, none of us would go for another gay asian man ("I'm no sticky rice queen" ).  The reason is that we just don't find asian men attractive in the same way that I don't do breasts.  I've met many people with great personalities and we've become best of friends.  We usually say "if only I was straight" or "if only I was into asians."

All in all, yes - personality is really important, but so is attractiveness.  (I have been approached by few, though very limited, who think that I'm the most gorgeous thing to grace the planet - but usually said in a drunken state  - never understood that.)
The worst feeling for someone is to find out that their partner is in love with their personality but not their looks - because that resembles more of a friendship than a relationship.

Gosh your impressive!! This is the sort of stuff I want to see!!

I will review and write something a little more substantial when I have time.

You make a good point, Hapgood, that broadens this issue beyond racism/racial stereotypes. Stereotypes have a purpose, both in sociology and in a social context. They can be used to describe aspects of people, subsets, general assumptions etc. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. The danger when people sexualise them (your example is great.... I only date geeks, I only date Asians) is that rarely do said people see anything beyond their own idea of what their fixation must be. The Geek is going to have certain personality traits, on a varying scale, but anything outside that ideal is ignored, or worse, not noticed at all.

Dating someone who has a defined "type" means that they never really get to know you at all. I have experienced it, from both angles.

Hmmm.... Gotta run, have to finish a report before lunchtime.

Am going to text my new number to you! I am sorry I keep forgetting. Would love to catch up this weekend if you've got time. Its an "in" weekend for me!! No Cube, No Lot, No B Bar!!

I find my partner to be perfect in looks... corny I know but I do. I think that's just love though.

I don't even look at other people like I used to anymore. I can tell when someone's ugly/hot still but... it's just a they're ugly/hot not like a they're hot and if it came to it i'd do them.

I don't really remember anything i wanted to say... too much passion pop... hi im bob.

Ok, I found my two cents.

On the topic of stereotypes, I'd agree with the problems you raised Hapgood.  The only thing is that it can be hard to overcome the stereotypes and people will often make an initial judgement based on the stereotype.  For example, a guy who is a little effeminate, wearing pink, speaking with a lisp and dancing wildly to Disco music at a night club will be assumed by most to be gay.  Conversely, when I told a friend that I was gay, he said I couldn't be, because I have no fashion sense, don't like shopping and don't like Kylie Minogue. 

The point of this is, that An seems to be saying that the stereotype surrounding Asians which is largely based on racism that is prevalent throughout our supposed great country makes it considerably harder for Asian men and women to find a partner.  Perhaps this is because when you know nothing else about a person, you may make a judgement based on a stereotype, and if the stereotype is a negative one due to a history of racism, then people are going to stay away from people who they think match that stereotype and not even begin to know them. 

When it comes to meeting a partner, there has to be something that attracts you to them.  When you know nothing else about the person, the initial attraction must surely come down to looks or behaviour that suggests a certain person who you'd be attracted to.  With me for example, let's say I was in Cube, I'd probably look past the guys chugging down the drinks and dancing madly on the dance-floor to the cute but quiet one in the corner who has a look of having great thoughts running through their mind.  The guy dancing might be the nicest guy on the world and the quiet guy in the corner might be a neo-nazi, but because I have nothing else to go on, I'd ignore the dancing guy and go over and speak to the one in the corner because their looks and behaviour fits in with my stereotype of the kind of guy I'd be interested in even though a good deal of the time it's probably (and has proven to be) wrong. 

So I'd say that physical attraction is an important part at the very beginning of any relationship.  Though note that when I say physical attraction I'm not just talking about good looking, rather their physical appearance which includes how they interact with other people, how they sit, smile, relate to their environment etc.

It'd be nice if we could move beyond the initial physical attraction when deciding if we should pursue someone or not, and I think there's times when we can.  A large proportion of relationships develop in the workplace, and I'd say it's largely due to the fact that you do get to actually know the person and therefore you're not basing an attraction on just their physical appearance or the stereotype that you think they fit into because you do actually know roughly what kind of a person they are.

When you're gay though, there's a much smaller chance of actually meeting someone in the workplace (depending on how big your workplace is) purely because of the small percentage of people who identify as being gay.  So instead you can be left with no choice but to meet people through gay clubs or gay functions where you know that everyone is gay.  The only problem is though that you don't actually know anyone beforehand and so all you can do is make an initial judgement based on physical appearances and stereotypes.  A good thing about Bit Bent is that it gives us all an opportunity to actually meet people for who they are so you can cast away all your pre-judgements.

As far as the necessity of physical attraction in a relationship, I do think it's important.  But I also think the concept of physical attraction is highly malleable.  Firstly, as I've said before, there's the whole thing about everyone being different - what's attractive to one person may not be attractive to another.  But secondly, I think people underestimate the power of being attractive to someone's personality.  I find that if I'm attracted to a person for who they are, then how I see them physically is also affected.  For example, with one of my female friends, when I hardly knew her I thought she wasn't overly attractive.  Since I got to know her more I have come to think that she is actually very pretty as has always been claimed by another one of my friends who has always been good friends with her. 

So in summary - when you have no means by which to a know a person before deciding whether you wish to pursue a relationship with them or not, then you can do little but judge them based on physical appearance and how this conforms with preconceived ideas about how people who look that way will be as a person.  And I therefore sympathise with those who consequently find it harder due to being judged as fitting in with stereotypes that have largely been given negative connotations due to our bigoted society.  The good news though, when you get to know someone, what you perceive to be physically attractive can change entirely.

I think this rival's Hapgood's for length, my apologies. 

You say that it's:

perpetuated by sociality's stereotyping or prejudices

but you're doing it yourself, and to yourself.

But here's what really, really got to me:

The worst feeling for someone is to find out that their partner is in love with their personality but not their looks - because that resembles more of a friendship than a relationship.

Where to start? Firstly, in defence of personality-based love: it does qualify as a relationship, and as a 'love' - even a sexually arousing one, at that.

Hypothetical example: if you were deeply in love, and attracted to someone, and then they were superfically injured in some cosmetic manner, would that mean you no longer had a relationship?

Psudeo-comical example - say they lost a nose in a fishing accident. Is all that you want in a relationship an aesthetic nose? Seriously. They lose their nose, and BANG! the relationship just suddenly isn't one anymore.

If so, here's a secret: anyone you love, for a sufficent amount of time, will grow old, get tired, increasingly sick, and die. They'll probably get cancer (chances are high) and that is a very ugly disease.

If someone sees relationships as physical attraction, they will not love for long. Age will consume them. And when their ears lengthen, and their hearing goes away, and their skin wrinkes and sags, and their eyes become cloudy, their joints become brittle, they will have neither the comfort nor compensation of love. Loneliness becomes them.

So basically, that sort of mindset sets people up for failure, in this.

Fact: there are many types of love. And passionate 'I find you attractive' love (yes, it is love, in it's own way) peaks early, then rapidly declines. Again, they do not love for long. Yet companionate love - the type you seemingly deride - continues to grow as time passes. So, looking back at your comment:

The worst feeling for someone is to find out that their partner is in love with their personality but not their looks - because that resembles more of a friendship than a relationship.

Which would you say now is more likely to 'resemble a relationship'? 

And these aren't my thoughts, by the way. They're Hatfield and Berscheid's, who are the top scholars in this stuff, incredibly practical, and down-to-earth.

Finally, the major thing that frustrated me is that according to you, the 'worst' feeling would be for someone to find out that their partner 'is in love with their personality but not their looks'.  You got that back to front, I think.

How much worse to find that your partner - perhaps like hundreds of strangers on the street - finds you ripshit hot, but just can't stand you? How awful to discover that you are neither loved nor appreciated for what's inside you, unless it's him?

And I'm exasperated because you're perpetuating this disinclination for love. I wouldn't mind if it just affected those who believed it, but it's becoming a phenomenon, a common sentiment that affects the existentially ugly (the boorish, the vain) and the rest of us (savants with matching exteriors) alike. Captivating lives go to waste. Your philosophy makes love harder to find, and we settle for less than contentment. Love is abandoned, thrown away like the very magazines that influence public opinion.

Hapgood, I cannot disagree with anything you said.  Personality is very important in any relationship, be it between friends, work mates, sporting teams or lovers.  And the true test in the strength of love between two people is whether they still love each other even if one succumbs to a horrible fate which changes their appearance - eg getting 3rd degree burns - or anything else.  But what I am saying is that there must be something that differentiates a friendship to a partnership.  True, partners can be best of friends, they're not mutually exclusive, but what is that special ingredient that makes someone want a relationship to develop to the next level?

On a similar note, how do one tell someone that they have feelings for them?  And how does one work out if the other person feels the same?

On a similar note, how do one tell someone that they have feelings for them?  And how does one work out if the other person feels the same?

"I like you. In a romantic-way. How do you feel about me?"

Next.

I guess I have a problem with my self esteem. I know that's hard for some of you who know me to imagine but it's true for a few reasons.  Firstly, I don't find myself attractive.  In other words, I won't date myself even if I was the last person alive on the earth.  Secondly, I've got an asian background and there are not many boys around that like asians.  I myself don't like asians if you get what i'm saying.

I'm with you Michael, on being a relationship kinda guy.  I guess I've never 'acted on my sexual impulses' due to the fact that I didn't want flings, but a boyfriend.  I prefer to hold hands with someone special while looking deep into their eyes, than sex.

And on approaching people I like... it links to the way i view myself.  Why would anyone (or the person I like) feel the same way about me if even I don't think I'm attractive.  so why bother if i already know that the answer is no?

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I guess I have a problem with my self esteem. I know that's hard for some of you who know me to imagine but it's true for a few reasons.  Firstly, I don't find myself attractive.  In other words, I won't date myself even if I was the last person alive on the earth.  Secondly, I've got an asian background and there are not many boys around that like asians.  I myself don't like asians if you get what i'm saying.

I'm with you Michael, on being a relationship kinda guy.  I guess I've never 'acted on my sexual impulses' due to the fact that I didn't want flings, but a boyfriend.  I prefer to hold hands with someone special while looking deep into their eyes, than sex.

And on approaching people I like... it links to the way i view myself.  Why would anyone (or the person I like) feel the same way about me if even I don't think I'm attractive.  so why bother if i already know that the answer is no?

Hey An,

Just wanted to relate some personal thoughts and experiences as a fellow Asian in the spirit of sharing; I don't presume to know u or know better than u.  However, I want to respond directly to ur post rather than ramble on.

On ur first point, I've found that the more positive feedback i've had from people, the greater my self-esteem.  most people would agree, i would think.  However, I guess that brings us to ur second point.

Yes, there are a lot of guys who say straight out that they do not like Asian guys (often based on perceived physical characteristics).  But not all Asians look alike nor are they so similar as to b essentially the same.  My own opinion and observation, having travelled a little, is that there are many attractive Asians and Asians of greatly differing appearance.  When guys say they do not like Asians, I wonder what their knowledge and experience of Asians is.  Foreign exchange students are NOT representative of 'Asians'.  Moreover, there are many Australasians and Aussie Asians.  All this aside, there are guys who are not attracted to Asians but more importantly, there are guys who ARE.  Granted, there seems to b more who aren't than who are (go someplace else and u might find that's not the case), but there's fun in the searching.

I decided to try a few dating sites a few months back and received (to my surprise) a few good responses and a couple of great ones.  I went thru the angst of putting up a pic, taking down the pic, specifying race, etc.  A lot of guys didn't respond once they saw my pic but the more it happened, the less personally i took it.  It still hurts but it's easier to brush off.  Hopefully, I'll get to know more guys thru sites like qnet and groups like bit bent (altho i don't think i was a great success, lol - c, i still feel like a loser sometimes, ;-) ). 

On relationships (a big 2), I much prefer that to casual sex (a big 0).  I'm a hopeless romantic and can b completely soppy.  It was really great holding a guy's hand in the movies for the first time : P .

On approaching guys I like, I've tried and failed miserably. I'm way too shy.  Will have to work on that.

Anyway, thnx for reading this far.  hopefully didn't come across as a know-it-all, but hope my personal thoughts and experiences help.  In short, one good experience makes up for a lot of bad ones!!

Cheers.

P.S.  I'm Chinese-Malay btw.  Moved to Canberra in '84 and loving it atm.
P.P.S.  I hate proofreading so sorry if it's crap to read.